When is the "start of the Attack Step?"

[rawtravel]

Thor of Higher Avalon: Fighting Dissidents reads "While Thor of Higher Avalon is Active, at the start of your opponent's attack step, deal 2 damage for each Team Affiliation in their Field Zone, divided any way you choose among their characters."

Does Thor's ability trigger....

A - When the opponent says, "I'm moving to the attack step," or otherwise indicates that they are not ending their turn after Main Step, which means Thor's damage happens before opponent chooses any dice to attack? or

B - The moment the opponent chooses a die to attack, which means the opponent's "when attacks" abilities will happen before Thor triggers?

Thank you!

[dmrulesteam]

In neither option as stated, though option B is partially correct.

The start of the Attack Step occurs when the Active player declares attackers, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, as in the case of a force to attack ability. Thor’s ability is resolved in the window between the declaring of these attackers and the initiation of any applicable “when attacks” or “when assigned to attack” abilities.

So, Thor could possibly KO an attacker before that attacker can initiate these abilities, but not before all attackers have been declared.

[ccm00007]

In neither option as stated, though option B is partially correct.

The start of the Attack Step occurs when the Active player declares attackers, whether voluntarily or involuntarily, as in the case of a force to attack ability. Thor’s ability is resolved in the window between the declaring of these attackers and the initiation of any applicable “when attacks” or “when assigned to attack” abilities.

So, Thor could possibly KO an attacker before that attacker can initiate these abilities, but not before all attackers have been declared.

Question for clarification: based on the above, it sounds like Thor of Higher Avalon's ability triggers during the "Declare Attackers" sub-step of the Attack step, after attackers themselves are declared, but before "When attacks" abilities would be used.

How can Thor of Higher Avalon trigger before "When attacks" abilities when it's an ability used by the inactive player? Seeing as both "Thor" and "When Attacks" abilities are triggered during the same sub-step, wouldn't 2.7.1.4 and 3.2.4 dictate that the active player's abilities would resolve first?

Thank you for your time.

For reference:

2.7.1.4 If the Inactive player has card abilities that trigger when they are attacked. These will take place after
all the Active player’s “when attacks” abilities are resolved.

3.2.4 All of the Active player’s abilities, followed by all of the Inactive player’s abilities, will enter the queue
in the order they each choose. This is called the order of entry. These abilities will then be resolved in the
order they entered the queue, called the order of resolution.

[dmrulesteam]

Thor’s ability is while active. Therefore, his ability is in effect can be applied at the prerequisite time indicated (in this situation the start of the opponent’s Attack Step as defined in the above ruling) and does not conflict with rule 2.7.1.4. If the opponent (who in this situation is the Active player) has a “while active” ability that would impact Thor, then rule 3.2.4 is germane.

Also, this ruling is consistent with how other similar abilities are resolved. For example, Emma Frost: Finesse

While Emma Frost is active, at the start of your opponent’s Attack Step, reroll 2 target [fist] character dice your opponent controls. Those showing character faces are returned to the Field Zone, those on energy faces are sent to the Reserve Pool.

The phrase “returned to the Field Zone” denotes attackers have been declared.

However, Phoenix Force Cyclops: Surviving the Multiverse is an exception to this ruling because of the specific text in this ability.

While Phoenix Force Cyclops is active, at the start of your opponent's Attack Step they pick an affiliation. Only [Sidekick Character dice] and characters of that affiliation may attack.

Here, the opponent can only resolve this ability before attackers are declared.

[jackalopespam]

In a different ruling it was indicated that Emma Frost occurs BEFORE attackers are declared. Is this a change?

https://win.wizkids.com/bb/viewtopic.ph ... 6ec#p34424

[dmrulesteam]

Yes. Thank you for bringing this to our attention. The rulings on Emma Frost: Finesse and Emma Frost: Manipulative will be revised accordingly to be consistent with this ruling.

[ccm00007]

One more follow-up question about this specific quote from earlier on in this thread:

So, Thor could possibly KO an attacker before that attacker can initiate these abilities, but not before all attackers have been declared.

If Thor KO's an attacker after attackers are declared but before "When attacks" abilities are initiated, are those abilities still in the queue and do they get to trigger?

Thank you for your time.

[dmrulesteam]

No. As is stated in the cited reference, an attacker would be KO’d before it could initiate any “when attacks” abilities. Thor’s ability an exception to the following rule:

Rule 2.7.1.2 After attackers are declared, initiate any “when attacks” or “when assigned to attack” abilities before proceeding to the next sub-step. These abilities will initiate for each applicable die that attacks.

Note: this exception also applies to the abilities on Emma Frost: Manipulative and Emma Frost: Finesse.